NetNews Offline 2/NetNews Offline Volume 2.iso/news/comp/sys/amiga/programmer/6377

Text File | 1996-08-05 | 14.6 KB | 331 lines

Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.programmer,comp.sys.amiga.games,alt.sys.amiga.demos,in,comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.hardware,comp.sys.amiga.misc,comp.sys.amiga.graphics
Path: yama.mcc.ac.uk!liv!lucs!news
From: [e-mail] (S.E. Morris)
Subject: Re: AB3D II beats Quake....
Sender: [e-mail] (News Eater)
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 12:21:26 GMT
References: <[e-mail]>
  <[e-mail]>
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Organization: Computer Science, University of Liverpool, UK
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In article <[e-mail]>,
[e-mail] (Fabio Bizzetti) writes:

>The *custom* (meaning lotsa times better) HP-PA RISC CPU was there!
>HP-PA and Commodore had a tight relationship, they already were working
>together since a lot of time. HP-PA has a future, and is perhaps the best
>RISC CPU available in a MultiMedia market. It is also one of the fastest
>FloatingPoint cruncher out there. The fastest HP-PA kicks ass of PPC620,
>that today is "not sure if we'll be available" because they discovered it's
>not practically faster than 604... that is not tha fast indeed.

I agree that HP PA would have been a better solution - especially
when it comes to emulation for legacy software.  I am currently
writing this on a HP-PA system running HPUX, and I know how powerful
the chips can be.  But the PowerPC, whether you like it or not, is
a more main-stream chip.  I agree it's design isn't as nice as
other RISCs, but it is certain to get the bulk of the R+D in the
coming years - and the price will be cheaper due to high sales.

It's important for ATech, especially when facing low-cost solutions
like the current Intel based PCs, that their new machines be cost-
effective.  And I cannot see any chips other than the PPC that can
give them the same power/price ratio.

I would have loved to see a HP-PA Amiga, but I have to admit I think
ATech ulitmately made the right choice based upon the current
situation the Amiga is in.  Who knows - if people like you avoid
bashing the hardware and stick to using the OS with HLLs like C++
then maybe one day we'll have a HP-PA based Amiga as well!!!  :->
(And and ARM and Dec Alpha... etc. :-> )

>PowerPC has been designed by IBM: I dont need to add anything else.

Wrong.  They were based upon an old IBM design, but the actual PPC
was designed from scratch by Motorola, IBM and Apple together.

It is my understanding (although I may be wrong in this) that
IBM and Apple provided a broad outline of a standard to which
Motorola worked.  So ultimately it was M that designed the actual
chip.


[snip...]
>>> No, It will run AmigaOS. Don't you see that the OS is the ONLY
>>> advantage the Amiga has today! It lacks in all other
>>> departments!
>
>Why??
>It's about time to make new custom chips!
>AGA is still 1983 technology, with x4 bandwidth (to RGB..).

Well, maybe 1985 technology.  :->

I think you'll find most graphics boards have not advanced that
much other than in increased bandwidth.  That it, until recently
when 3D chips etc. became more popular.

>WHO SAID THAT IT IS NORMAL TO NOT HAVE NEW CUSTOM CHIPS????
>
>Commodore didn't die because they spent all their money to make new custom
>chips: Commodore died because they didn't spend money to make new custom
>chips.

You have a point I suppose.  But why do we have to make the custom chips
ourselves...?  Why not just pick the best of the emerging technologies
and then bind them together into one chipset.  Why re-invent the wheel?

The only reason why Jay Miner, etc. designed the Amiga custom chips
in the first place was because there was nothing like that around at
a reasonable price.  Today the situation is different.  The other
platforms (PC and Mac) have latched onto graphics in a big way -
and there are plenty of people making chips which would be more than
suitable for the Amiga...

And there is a slow (but definate) movement away from hardware and towards
OSs.  In the future it won't matter what chips are under the hood -
providing they can do the job.  If you think the Amiga begins and ends
with the chipset then I think you have a very very narrow minded view.

>Is it so difficult to understand?
>
>Wouldn't the Amiga be the most sold games machine (with best market) if we
>had AAA when it was time to have it (lotsa years ago)? Wouldn't the Amiga
>(both high-end and low-end) have *no competition* if 3 years ago (when
>PowerMac did born), or also today, it had HP-PA Hombre?

I want the Amiga to be more than a games machine.  The current
PC technology (CISC based Intel chips) is due to die a death soon -
and the PC community hasn't even started to consider a RISC replacement.
This will leave a gap in the market for a new-technology computer,
and if the Amiga can run PC software (via OS/2, WinNT and Win'95) then
it provides an excellent machine for PC owners wishing to migrate
up to 21st Century technology (the Amiga!!!)

>Commodore died because they delayed the technology improvements.

This is true.  But time has moved on and we cannot just pick
up where Commodore left off.  We are facing increasing competition
from other platforms and our response has to be positive, firm, and
above all forward-looking.

>Commodore died because while the market (not only computers) had a huge demand
>of highperformances/lowcost chips, it missed all the opportunities.
>Watch "The Deathbed Vigil" about all the missed occasions.
>
>Escom/AT is sincerely acting *worse* than the Commodore of 1991.

Bullshit.  Time will prove you wrong.  AT's attiture is professional
and forward-looking.  They are not going to repeat the same mistakes
that Commodore made.  We've never had it so good!!!

>They're blind, accustomed to sell PC's to people that would buy *anything*.
>But the Amiga is not attractive for these standard users, and will always
>be seen as the most silly way to risk money and time.

Not if the new PowerAmiga can run PC software as well as it's own.
This will be a real advantage.

>>Heh, are you implying that the OS isn't lacking?  How about these:
>
>>* Virtual Memory.
>>* Memory Protection.
>>* Resource Tracking.
>>* A decent file system.
>
>Now they've to convert the whole OS from 680x0 to PowerPC, and it'll take
>ages, will be full of bugs: and the final result will not be considerably
>better than before, but much more complex.

Not if it was written in C/C++  :->

>Instead, adding the HP-PA subsystem would have made all *simple*, logical,
>immediate, simple, performant...

:-<
Great - so we stick with CISC for forever more!?!?!?!?
We need to make the move over entirely to RISC!!

>
>>* Device independance.
>
>2 subsystems: Amiga 680x0 and RISC HP-PA Hombre (one or more), where the AGA
>would have been emulated by the Hombre (providing that it is not a fucking
>SVGA standard chip: it's the state of the art techonology, able to emulate
>AGA's copper as nothing).
>
>>Last but not least, where are our developers and publishing houses?
>
>As I said before, I (an extreme Amiga "fanatic") will not code for a *PC* with
>PowerPC cpu and no market rather than for a PC with a 80686 cpu and a huge
>market. Just because it has the sticker "Amiga" doesn't make it different
>than what it is: a *IBM PC*.

Sad!  :-<

Can I make a suggestion...?  Stick with your A1200 (or whatever) and
you'll be happy.  The rest of the world will pass you by and vanish off
into the horizon - but at least you'll be happy!!!  :->

>Now imagine who never cared about the Amiga: what economical interests will the
>developer see in the PowerAmiga?? If he is mad, he can risk all for the BeBox:
>but also if he doesn't lose money and sells as much as practically possible, he
>will *never* earn more than he can do on the PC with Windows96 or anything else.
>And developing programs on Windows95 and then recompiling them on PowerAmiga
>OS, although not realistically possible without changes, will still be a crap
>conversion. A buyer gets a PC and gets the software instead of its shadow.

You obviously don't know how this works.  The Amiga will be capable
of running Win'95 - so you mearly need to re-compile for PowerPC.
This will enable the current PC users to move over to the Amiga
smoothly - and should be a big selling point.

Once they have bought the Amiga they will be dazzled by it's OS
and thus will gradually move from Win'95 apps to AmigaOS apps...


>It's sooooo naive to say that the Amiga has to become a IBM PC because the
>A500's gfx chip today are obsolete. Who ever promised "you'll have to use
>them for the eternity"? The OS evolves, the hard-disks evolve, the ram evolves,
>the cpu evolves. Now it's time to evolv the *custom* chips, not to throw
>everything out of the window (projects included) and buy a IBM PC, change the
>CPU, put the sticker "Amiga" and run a fake AmigaOS clone.

You *really* don't know what you're talking about.  Like I said -
times change and we need new hardware.  I suspect you'll *never*
be happy with anything AT offer because you are so wedded to the
current 1985 design it blurs your view.


>>HP-PA, Sparc, Alpha, in fact, name your processor... if only AT would cut
>>the AmigaOS losses, move a long way to portable source (instead of taking
>>the cheap-shot option with 68k emulation on the PPC).
>
>Look: if you have a car, you can change motor and put a better one, and so on.
>AT/Escom waited when you weren't watching, changed the whole car, painted it
>again like the old one, and tryed to give you the same cockpit. This car is
>exactly the one you always hated, except for the cockpit and the color.

Poor comparason.

If your car was a 'Ford model T' I would think you would be
well pleased if they replaced it with a Ferrari (sp?)

Even big motor companies like Ford, GM, etc. now buy-in bits of
their cars which originally they used to design and produce themselves.
They have realised that they cannot do *everything* themselves, and
they are much better off employing other specialist companies to
design and build certain parts.

>I would complain hard.

Maybe you like driving Ford model T's.

[snipped...]
>So mine was a very constructive remark: if AT is reading this, it should
>consider that many developers dont trust them anymore, because now it's
>clear what their future plans are, and only Escom's business likes them:
>they'll be the first company able to sell *IBM PC's* to ex "fanatic" Amiga
>users.

Unfortunetly your comments on developers not trusting them are not
born out by the facts.  Many of the developers who left the Amiga
because of it's decline are now either returning or considering
returning to the platform as a direct response to AT and it's
plans for the future.  A number of the games developers seem to
have decided they will stay with the Amiga and rough-it-out until
the new machines have a chance to revitalise the market.  Again -
as a direct result of AT and it's plans.

>Sure some people will still prefer to hope to get the same Windows'95
>utilities compiled for the PowerAmiga, but this is all the PAmiga market
>and reason to exist. I believe Escom thinks:

No - we will get *the* Windows'95, as well as AmigaOS.  At this point
the purists start throwing their hands up in horror an screaming
"WIN95 ON AN AMIGA??? NEVER NEVER NEVER!!!!".  But all that this
means is that we will have the best of both worlds.  We will be able
to run both OSs side by side, and pick and choose which apps are
best from both platforms.

This will have many advantages:  Firstly, it will enable a lot of
people who defected away from the Amiga to the PC over the last
couple of years to return to the platform while retaining their
data from the PC.  Secondly, it will mean that those with the
closed "PC is everything" attitude will be far more open to
buying and using an Amiga.  Many (virtually all?) businesses
and home users will not buy Amigas because they do not run the
mainstream apps and this causes them problems - this will erase this
problem.  Thirdly, it will enable a lot of people with PC-only experience
to discover (and thus be won over by) the delights of AmigaOS.  Forthly,
it will encourage a lot of PC only developers to look at AmigaOS, which
(hopefully) lead to more of the mainstream apps being ported.

>"He doesn't want to buy my PC? I sell him the one with the other CPU and
>the stickers that I bought nearly for free at that auction sale. WOW:
>I sell my PC's to every people, this is business".

So..... The CPU is different to the PC.  The casing is different to
a PC.  The graphics chips will be more advanced than a PC.  The
machine will be RISC based not CISC based, unlike the PC.
And yet to still maintain this is a PC.....???????  :-\

Think about what you are saying:  If ATech wanted to simply
sell PC's to Amiga-users they wouldn't sell very many.  The Amiga
market is not very large (compared to the PC) so why go to all this
fuss just to sell Amiga users disguised PCs....?

The only way they are going to make any money is if they dramatically
expand the Amiga's market share.  Why bother...?  If Escom/AT are only
bothered in selling PCs then why bother *at all* with the Amiga..?
The market is too small to be concerned with ----- UNLESS THEY INTEND
TO MAKE THE AMIGA A SERIOUS ALTERNATIVE!!!!!

(Which is of course, what they are trying to do --- but your PC
hatred is blinding your from seeing that!)


>While Motorola abandoned 680x0, Intel has not abandoned 80x86, that will never
>die IMO (I am technically sure about it).

They will abandon 80x86 fairly soon.  They rumours are that the Pentium
line is not going to go very much further before Intel announce
it will be ditching backwards compatability.

You may know a lot about games programming - but you abviously know
sweet FA about OSs.  The future of computing is with cross-platform
OS's --- where is doesn't matter what CPU you are running.  Then
Intel (and their 80x86) will loose out to faster RISC alternatives.

>It was time to *add* a HP-PA to the Amiga.

No - it's time to *replace* the 680x0 with a RISC chip.

>IMO the PowerAmiga experiment will finish soon, Escom will reconvert the
>machines to run PowerMac software, still using Commodore name for PC's and
>Amiga name for RISC PC's.

Nope - why bother???  If they wanted to make PowerMac's they'd just
call them PowerMac clones.  Why would Escom want to confuse the issue
by re-using an old name (Amiga) for a totally different produce.
Ultimately such confusion would only damage their sales.

I do wish you would *think* before making silly comments like this!


> Names.
>
>The PowerAmiga will have more IBM chips inside than a Pentium has today.

No it won't.  Stop shit-stiring!!!!!!!

Go play with your A1200, and let the rest of us push the Amiga into
the future... :->


-FISH-   ><>